Curse

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 21, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyokuji

I don't like it when people start trying to put limits on my freedom of speech.
If they want to be hateful and stupid, let them.

Censorship is never the answer.

People are taking the freedom of speech thing too literally and too far. It's like the freedom in the pursuit of happiness does NOT mean you can do whatever you want in the pursuit of happiness. If that was the case then the world would be in total chaos and no one would ever be safe.

There are such things as limits. I can't believe people can't see beyond black and white. Feel free to say anything you want, but some things shouldnt be said. Is it so hard for you to refrain from using racist remarks? Why use them anyway? Good grief.

Thorburn · May 21, 2005, 11:48 AM // 11:48

The problem is this game and many games like it with PvP, attract these teenage kids. They see this kind of crap on TV, etc. so they think they are tough, etc using slurs.

It amazes me the amount of teenagers these days who are morons. I am 31, and the difference from when I was 16 is astounding.

Vangor · May 21, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I've already said it, though apparelty it needs to be once more, the Freedom of Speech, does not extend to ArenaNET's Sphere of Influence on internet based "regions", the United States legal system can only enforce laws which ArenaNET has specific intent to break. As well, nevermind what your Rights and Freedoms are, considering they do not extend by and large to those who attempt to merely use them as opposed to uphold them, it is up to ArenaNET to say how far anything goes within its SoI, and whether or not you read the Terms of Service is not their problem, for one ignorance has never been an excuse, especially when it is accessible, but also everyone who wants to have any kind of debate should already understand that Terms of Service contain wordings that acceptance of the Terms of Service means an agreement to comply with the actions and regulations of ArenaNET, else I would say being ill-equipped as you are, do not talk.

Plus, I don't seem to believe a filter is going in as in a system, so much as the filter being people obviously, in other words, we see blatant racism and hatreds, we'll attempt to report it one way or another.

A company's fanbase is its livelihood, if anyone wants to say how horrible the removal of their freedoms is and leave Guild Wars, try any other MMO which probably has even stiffer punishments, people have gotten warnings (which amount to sort of a 3 strikes your out system), 3-day, week long, and month long bannings for being racist and so forth since the beginning of any of them practically, I'm surprised ArenaNET hasn't already stepped in when it creates a "singular" field with which to play on from many markets.

Plus Thorburn, say children, we all understand what you are meaning, I would divide the current generation of teenagers into two seperate entities, those currently drawn as you say, and those drawn in a complete opposite, I also have a far better grasp of this being 18 myself, I'm surprised at the amount of immorality that comes from most of them, yet you'd probably be in inverse to the amount of morality from the others, and a less double-standard effect I must say than previous generations.

Corwin_Andros · May 21, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I know this won't have much bearing on the racism in discussion, but I do honestly believe that part of the problem is in how ANet divided the world into REAL countries.

What they could have done would have been to divide the real world into districts with fantasy names. These districts would have been either several several countries banded together ... ie.. several European countries.. or in the case of the Americas, clumps of states or countries with parts of the US, Canada, and wherever else they have provided the game into large geographical areas. The only difference in doing things this way would have been to either drop or at least significantly raise the migration limit which is cuttently 5 times per account. The only thing that the people would need to know about the "country" they were going into would be if the primary language was English, Spanish, or in teh cases of Europe or Asia.

Would it stop hatred or racism, or immature ignorance.. Not a chance.. Given half a chance, people prefer to never change. What it would do would be to mitigate it into a more gamely context. Instead of Americans talking trash to Koreans.. "Boffins" would talk trash to "Ooga Boogans" or somesuch.

I'm not sure how many of you have every heard of The Society of Creative Anachronism, but it is a midievil(sp?) recreation group that is worldwide and is divided along these lines. It works out pretty well that way.

Try as any of us might, none of us can force people to behave in anything pproaching a decent manner. True, ANet and NCSoft can ban them and eventually make the GW environment a bit more pleasant for those that remain, but it is an unfortunate fact that that won't remove the true "inner idiot" from a single person.

Thorburn · May 21, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Vangor had a nice thought out reply that I agree with.

I have been playing online games since '98. Using fansite forums OR in these games there have always been pricks (just like real life). They spew racist comments, threaten to beat people up, etc. I really take it all with a grain of salt now. I still say most of these people are 13yr old kids doing it to annoy, and "shock" people.

Again, not all 13 yr olds are like this, so dont misconstrue what I am saying. As long as the game companies are getting their money, I dont think they really care. Unless its a monthly fee type game.

Just ignore these people and enjoy the game.

Striker Shardale · May 21, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

In the end it all boils down to the fact that this game is rated TEEN, therefore a TEEN may get a hold of it. A TEEN ESRB rating basically means that there is no sex in the game, nudity, excessive violence/blood, or "dirty language". Maybe if the game was rated M for MATURE then there would not be such a major deal about such derogatory language, it is much like a music CD. When you go and buy a CD that says EXPLICIT lyrics you expect it to have foul language so you accept that and get over it because you put your money towards it but when I went to buy Guild Wars I was looking to bring my mind away from reality for atleast just a little bit and play a nice wholesome competitive ORPG.

By the way there is a difference between Freedom of Speech and breaking the ToS in a game. If you truely believe calling people racial slurs, etc. is practicing Freedom of Speech when you have obviously broken the ToS in a game or on a forum then you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

Anways, lets all finish up this darn forum and go have a drink or two and play some Guild Wars.... I need my fix.

Poppinjay · May 21, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Sheesh, lets NOT start blaming teens and TV.

There are probably fewer racist teens than adults because teens are growing up in a world where many racist laws of the recent past have been abolished.

Further, if anything, television would help because racists tend to be people who have very little exposure to other races, and television can make somebody in an all-white little town see minorities shown in a positive light. It is true that TV has some clating---minorities are not always given the access to roles they should have, but overall I think it is better than no exposure at all.

If you want to look at teh source of racism you need to look at the PARENTS. How many racist teens come from tolerant families? My bet is not many. Find a young racist and there is almost certainly some adult in his or her life---parent, grandparent, step-parent, grandparent, or aunt/uncle who has fed him that or her that crapola.

Though I am in my thirties, the tendency for adults to falsely glorify/beautify the past and blame societal ills on "Kids today..." or technology is very disturbing. And even though things have primarily improved for mankind it seems like every generation has a large share of people who see the seeds of doom and destruction in the next.

I would also point out that one does not necessarily know the age of somebody when one chats with him or her in teh game. Computer games like this most likely draw their shair of gifted teens, and I have been surprised to find that several people who I have met who seem well spoken and knowledgeable, even for an adult, were in fact still in highschool.

Now that I think of it, thsi might be one of the reasons why racists act up on here. INside the game they have no way of telling who is an acceptable rance and who might be one of THEM... The fact that they can not tell threatens their belief that different races are fundamentally different and scares them.

Poppinjay

BTW: Please ignore typos as I am writing this without my contacts and can not easily see what I am typing in order to make corrections.

PieXags · May 21, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Thorburn and Poppin'Jay have the right idea. Maybe peoples should stop blaming it on others...and go play the game? Yeah, I think that sounds like a damn good idea. Lets go play the game.

Kaos the Korruptor · May 21, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelig

Oh, wait... that's genius!

And, in future, white kids will be allowed to run through school halls screaming racist obscenities at the top of their lungs. Kids of other races will be issued with earplugs.

Wow now that is Blatantly racist, How do you know that ALL of the Racial remarks are spoken by WHITE kids????
You do realize that just every nationality has some kind of derogitory frase or slur for people NOT of their peticular national origin.
For example.....

The Chinese call NON-chinese people GUI-LO's (Goo-Why-Low), And the Japanese call NON-Japanese GY-GING's

Just as the rest of the non Asian countries call Most Asians SLOPES, Or CHINK.

There realy is no need to get upset of hot under the collar about all of this.
Just do what most MATURE People do and ignor the derogitory remarks and move on with your life.

If I got upset everytime I was called SPIC, or GREASE-BALL, I would have an ulcer right now.

Look I really don't care what anybody says about me or my Race/Nationality/Religion Its all just words and they can not do any real harm to you. Just maintane the thought that the individuals who say those words would never attemp to say it to anyone face if they were alone in a room with them .

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 21, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaos the Korruptor

Wow now that is Blatantly racist, How do you know that ALL of the Racial remarks are spoken by WHITE kids????
You do realize that just every nationality has some kind of derogitory frase or slur for people NOT of their peticular national origin.
For example.....

The Chinese call NON-chinese people GUI-LO's (Goo-Why-Low), And the Japanese call NON-Japanese GY-GING's

Just as the rest of the non Asian countries call Most Asians SLOPES, Or CHINK.

There realy is no need to get upset of hot under the collar about all of this.
Just do what most MATURE People do and ignor the derogitory remarks and move on with your life.

If I got upset everytime I was called SPIC, or GREASE-BALL, I would have an ulcer right now.

Look I really don't care what anybody says about me or my Race/Nationality/Religion Its all just words and they can not do any real harm to you. Just maintane the thought that the individuals who say those words would never attemp to say it to anyone face if they were alone in a room with them .

Just because other people are using such degrading terms doesn't mean it should be accepted. I don't get how your points make it acceptable. So people all around the globe do bad thngs, so that makes it okay? Ummm yeah makes sense...

And no one is saying that you should blow a gasket everytime you hear a racial slur. No in fact you should remain calm about it. But you do something about it. Maybe just a polite request asking the person to stop using it. But doing nothing just condones it. You're giving up and basically accepting it.

The only time you should ignore this stuff is if confronting it will lead to violence. But to say ignore this stuff? Geez, people have no balls nowdays... and don't take the initiative to make things better.

PieXags · May 21, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

A good many people with past experience in the matter who've been playing games and hearing such things for a long time will tell you that more times than not, asking them to stop only increases the amount of words coming from them, which will then lead you to put them on your ignore list anyways. How is putting them on your ignore list turning away from the problem? Seems to me it's fixing it, what matters of it anyway.

As you've all just stated, it happens AROUND THE GLOBE. Do you really think you can just -BAM!- stop it like that? A filter wouldn't do anything becuase there's no way efficient way to define such things, and you're always going to have people, monthly subscription fee or not, who do things like that.

The best thing to do IS ignore them, because you can't do anything about it.

Nad · May 21, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I hate stupid hippies that think they can stop racism or get Anet to ban people for being "racist" more then the koreans that get my party whiped in a mission because they dont understand "hold". Now close that floppy vagina that apparently took the place of your mouth and play the damn game.

And yea...what Kaos the Korruptor said should have ended this thread.

Xelig · May 22, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaos the Korruptor

Wow now that is Blatantly racist, How do you know that ALL of the Racial remarks are spoken by WHITE kids????

Did I say all racist remarks are spoken by whites? It was just an example, or do you expect me to list every single possible alternative? We could be here a long time if you want me to list every single race and nationality...

Vladamir the Vile · May 22, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Everyone has to remember, this "racism" is very good. It makes these little "Ignorant Americans" feel all big and cool. you know all the "cool" kids are like this. Personally if anyone starts mouthing off racial slurs, the first thing I'm doing is asking them to stop. then if it continues, writing down their name and using the map to leave the group and emailing area net.

One thing I can't stand is racism. *GAH* they all need a good smack upside the head.

and I don't like being grouped with "american" district either. They need a Canadian district.

Long live the King and Queen of Canada! *read Rick Mercer-you either get it or don't*

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 22, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nad

Now close that floppy vagina that apparently took the place of your mouth and play the damn game.

It doesnt surprise me that you'd defend the use of racial slurs with a vocabulary like that. And frankly I'm surprised you even know what a vagina is.

Oh and I love people's attitudes nowdays. "There's nothing you can do, you can't stop it" Man you people have no balls. The same people who cower and do nothing when someone's in trouble.

PieXags · May 22, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Well then by all means, GnomeSmasher, go out and stop racism and let us know when the wars over and racism has ceased to exist. We'll even erect a giant statue in your honor, and give it a nice engraving that reads "His balls kept you out of trouble."

I guess we could all go around, grow some "balls", and beat everyone who throws out a comment that some person somewhere in the world takes offense to, we'll even label the metal rod we do it with "beating stick" if it makes you happy, whatever means we've got balls!

Seriously mate, racism is always going to be amongst us, so long as differences in people exist so will the insults that point out such things. If you've lived so long and have not yet figured that out I don't know what to tell you, that's reality.

Yeah, we know it sucks, but honestly, I've yet to see you give any suggestions that would make it possible to eliminate any and all forms of racism without pissing other people off because of how strict it would need to be. I mean I guess you could just put forth the suggestion of "ban racists", but...well lets face it, the arguments that would arise from such a thing would be enough to tear apart the community as a whole.

The devs know that they won't be able to just "get rid of racism and racist comments" because people always find away around filters, and other such things. This is why they put the IGNORE feature in the game, incase there's someone doing something and saying things you don't want to hear.

Sucks 'eh? Yeah, I know. Sorry I had to be so blunt, but when you go and say nobody's got any balls because they've thought the situation over as a whole, well I felt the need to say something, especially when you didn't give any backing to your statements other than "You people've got no balls, you're the sort of people that would..." You didn't mention how YOU'RE stopping anything, or suggest any way in which we SHOULD go about it. At least, a way that works.

Anyways I need a drink, then guess I'll go do my latest quests. I've seen one guy in-game toss out some racist comments and they were hitler-related, not towards the Koreans or Europeans of today. So I don't see how the issue has gotten so out of hand that it needs to be addressed in such a way anyway. I guess now I'm questioning why I took the time to post this, but I guess since I've already done all the work I'll just hit the submit button.

Cheers.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 22, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Yeah, we know it sucks, but honestly, I've yet to see you give any suggestions that would make it possible to eliminate any and all forms of racism without pissing other people off because of how strict it would need to be. I mean I guess you could just put forth the suggestion of "ban racists", but...well lets face it, the arguments that would arise from such a thing would be enough to tear apart the community as a whole.

Blah blah blah. It's ridiculous of you to say that because it exists everywhere that nothing should be done about it. Also ridiculous to say that I gave no suggestions to elimate all forms of racism, there is no such thing. I mean, come on. Be logical here.

We can report anyone who gets out of line. There's your suggestion. Saying that we shouldnt do anything is like saying we should let all crimes go unpunished since there will always be crime.

And I wasn't talking about filters. I never did once mention filters. Go read my posts and show me where I mentioned anything about them. My point was that ignoring a problem doesnt make it go away, "mate"

Nad · May 22, 2005, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

It doesnt surprise me that you'd defend the use of racial slurs with a vocabulary like that.

Where did I defend it? Thanks...

Quote:

And frankly I'm surprised you even know what a vagina is.

O SNAP!! I got BUUUUUUUURRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNED....nice one...no really...it was...

PieXags · May 22, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Gnome that's just my point, how do you intend to "report" it? Screenshots can EASILY be edited, with instanced zones you can't have GMs watching all chat lines or anything like that, and by the time you DID report it, you would've moved on and keep in mind that multiple people play on some accounts, you can't just ban the entire account because of what COULD be a one-time instance by someone. There isn't a way to just "report and get rid of" racists and those who make such comments. And often times you'd have people saying the simplest of things that someone would "report" in an attempt to screw them over.

Lets put some thought into our posts before submitting "blah blah blah". If you put as much effort into searching for racists as you did submitting posts which often amount to nothing but..."blah blah blah", we just might stand a chance afterall.

Anyways, back to the discussion. Can you tell me, just why putting them on your ignore list is a problem? I don't remember you commenting on that suggestion, or pointing out what's wrong with it. Is it because it doesn't get rid of them all? Is that what's wrong with simply putting them on your ignore list? Tell me, will ANYTHING get rid of them all? Filters will do nothing, reporting such instances is a complicated matter and from such a thing could arise many false accusations and reports, you can't have gamemasters constantly in-game watching over everything because of the way the zones/instances are set up. And the simple possibility of having "gamemasters" or "moderators" looming over every bit of the game is ridiculous as that creates more spam than anything else.

Also, did I mention that the instances of such racist remarks are so rare, and so isolated that it's not worth changing ANY part of the current game system because of it?

Put them on your ignore list if they don't stop when you first ask them to, go enjoy yourself elsewhere in the game, because any other means won't do anything but complicate things, I've TRIED it in the past and have seen such things in many different betas/games in the past. So don't use "you aren't doing anything about it" as something to fall back on this time.

The fact that this thread is still going, without purpose or decent backing, is amazing to me. Why not lock it? Since it's obviously not going to turn into anything of good-nature.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 22, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

PieXags, the purpose of reporting someone is to inform the higher-ups that the individual bears some watching. If they get enough reports on the same person, they go monitor the actions of that person. And when/if they catch him then they ban him. That's how the system works.

Everything takes babysteps. Just saying something is "too hard to monitor" is not an excuse to ignore the problem. My problem isn't that you chose to ignore these people but because a few of you, maybe not you specifically, PieXags, a few of you people came into this thread telling others that it was wrong to report people. That racist remarks aren't enough to be reported. That's what bothered me about some of the comments in this thread.

And why lock this thread? Because you don't like it? Sure there are immature idiots like Nad just trolling and not adding anything to it but it's still a valid discussion going on here.

Also it's ironic that so many of you come in here to tell us to "ignore" something that we have issues with, yet you come in here in this thread to argue about it. Whatever happend to just ignoring and leaving things alone?